Never actually tested it myself. Sit back and relax after that. The Bed of Chaos, mother of demons, was a result of the Witch of Izalith's attempt at remaking the First Flame. [–]AmorphousGamer 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (1 child). I invest in 40 Firebombs as I cheese the Hydra, free Dusk from her golem-y prison and get the Oolacile catalyst. Nito: LoS him on the middle pillar in his room and use a divine weapon to kill off all the skeletons. Though I never seem to get it to work I know its possible. He couldn't reach me unless he did his jump attack, but it was easy to just sidestep the attack as he jumped and strafe around to the other side of the rock. [–]Umezete 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child). Members. Stand in the spot shown in the picture (the Bed can't attack you here, unless one of the orbs are destroyed). The similarities are at least for me painfully obvious and should be mentioned in any wiki concerning this boss. [–]TheDarkestRobot 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children). Gargoyles- Pine resin, run up and hit gargoyle with your weapon, he'll almost definitely short hop back, chase around and cut tail. The Bed of Chaos is a boss fight with a difference. Mods should be directed towards /r/ModSouls. Eventually, the Bed of Chaos was destroyed by the Chosen Undead, but the flames of Chaos lived o… For Sif, there's a way to stay outside the boss room and just toss ranged weaponry in there, out of reach. I also absolutely hate having to build a weapon for just 1 fight but if you are already a cleric this might just be convenient enough. It's genuinely horrible. I thougth just tanking his hand smash over and over and hitting him was the cheese strat (thats what I did), [–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (5 children). Snuggly Souls. For Dark Souls on the PlayStation 3, a GameFAQs message board topic titled "Bed of Chaos tips! ". Soul of Bed of Chaos is a key item in Dark Souls. Taurus demon- Safe is plunging attacks till he dies, fast is use the gold pine resin in undeadburg and tear him appart. Use of this site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy. Tarkus will kill that bomb throwing giant for you too! In This Video I go over how to kill the bed of chaos in one of the easiest ways possible. I don't think there's a way NOT to, honestly. and join one of thousands of communities. No racist, sexist or homophobic language. Fashion Souls sure I'll add that one, tarkus wrecks the golem so hard. I broke down and bought Dark Souls Remastered even though I have the original PC release. [–]SaturnZz 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children), I'm about to go do four kings. When she failed to control the new flame, it consumed her and molded her into a twisted being known as the Bed of Chaos, the source of all demons. You know I totally knew that about manus and for some reason didn't write that, added it in. What bosses in Souls games have self healing abilities? Edit: Hope thats the right Thumbnail + What are your thougths on those "cheese strats"? Or so I've heard. In This Video I go over how to kill the bed of chaos in one of the easiest ways possible. Seath the scaleless, not much to cheese here, if you run up to him you can hack away until he charges and attack, run away, then repeat. ". Continue the series at /r/DarkSouls2 and /r/DarkSouls3, https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls/wiki/discord, Demon's Souls I also kinda like to see enemys fall of Cliffs bwahaha :3. ". EDIT: The darkest robot's, AmorphousGamer and rock 138's advice added. So after learning that apparently theres always somehow a way to make it easier or using a "cheese strat". When you enter the boss area, run straight ahead until you reach the Bed of Chaos. . Not only an imposing fire-based boss found in the Demon Ruins, Ceaseless Discharge, as his name may suggest, is the source of the lava flow.Killing him will cease the discharge of lava in the lower parts of the ruins, allowing access to the deeper areas of the map, and progress in the campaign. He can 1 shot most people but only if you don't know how to dodge at all. The only boss I felt the need to cheese - Dark Sun Gwyndolin. For Dark Souls on the PlayStation 3, a GameFAQs message board topic titled "Where do I go after Bed of Chaos? Bed of Chaos Exploit Cheese No Hit Strategy. © 2020 reddit inc. All rights reserved. Tanking with estus against nito and small skeletons is pretty easy as he will periodically kill the small skeles by accident. You can pull them separately 1-2 at a time. Bloodborne But as we all know Dark Souls doesnt have a lot of music but is good cause when music is played it really helps seperate the place and set the tone like firelink in Lordran. The transformed witch, the insect like beeing, reminded me of the miserable true king Allant within the Old One. demon firesage and the return to asylum demon- They have some rather large uh assets that affects their hindsight. Havels just allows you to stand still and R1 them to death. The Bed of Chaos is no exception. Dark Souls 2 One Bros The one you use often? Demon’s Souls Builds: Death Cleaver Guide (Beginner PvP) December 4, 2020 Rumour: Elden Ring New Trailer To Be Shown at The Game Awards 2020 December 4, 2020 Wolcen: Bloodtrail Free Expansion Launch and Trailer December 3, 2020 :P I'm not ashamed. ... Look up a cheese video. [–]AmorphousGamer 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child). Ceaseless- Steal his dead siss clothes and run like the bandit you are for the fog gate. There's no real excuse for how absolutely terrible this fight is. I enjoy making the Black Knight in the Burg run off the cliff, even though I could easily parry him or whatever. Im generally trying to not use them but I do most definitely try to snipe everything that comes my way. This is sure to get you trained on exactly how to perform this exploit. The Bed of Chaos is bullshit, absolutely, and definitely the worst boss in Dark Souls 1, mechanically. The Bed of Chaos innerts resemble somewhat the one from the Demon's Souls Old One. The Bed of Chaos is a Boss in Dark Souls.. Dark Souls Mods They don't appear to do anything different than me but they get through it … Nito- havel or stone also works against nito, ideally you fight him where you land and don't stray far enough out in the room to attract the skeleton giants. Ornstein and Smough Talisman only, 9 hour fight done by yartrigs (Not me) in a single session. First time I tried I was so frustrated. And no Im not talking about Glitches or using Third software or any of that stuff. Summon Sign [Fan Art] I made Frampt and Kaathe Sock Puppets. What are yours? I mean sif doesn't spawn until you meet her first right? From his head grew two horns and seven glowing, red eyes, partially covered by his wrinkled skin, while the right side of his body is framed by a \"rib cage\" made of insect-like appendages. [–]TheMuffinzzz[S] 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (6 children). This boss fight can be pretty difficult but with a good strategy like I show in this video, it can be beat pretty easily.If you enjoyed this video, make sure to give it a thumbs up and hit the subscribe button if you want more stuff like this!● Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/ghostinitiative● Twitter: https://twitter.com/ots_ghost● Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theghostinitiative/● Click to Subscribe to my youtube channel: https://goo.gl/GMYoQY It's a good easy way out if you find yourself ready to break shit on attempt 62. Ceaseless Discharge is presumably the youngest child, and only son, of the Witch of Izalith. Pinwheel- I initially forgot pinwheel, there is a reason for this. sigh. Bed Of Chaos is absolute bullshit. The thing that triggers his ability to be cheesed is being near his sister's corpse. [–]TheEnderMaster 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (8 children). Halfway through an attempt, I realized I could easily poke him through/around/over one of the rock mounds in his room (I was using the silver knight spear). I've seen people do it in one go on speedruns and stuff, but it just seems like dumb luck. For Dark Souls on the PlayStation 3, a GameFAQs message board topic titled "How do I get to Bed of Chaos? Online. I was trash at parrying during my first playthrough, so Gwyn gave me trouble. Also not any good on NG+ and beyond. Stand as close to the corner as you can and bait the demon's grab attack. Yeah you can block O&S, not sure if that counts as cheese and you'll still get wrecked if you get cocky but that is by far your best bet to beat them easily. Please adhere to reddit's guidelines on self promotion. Bed of chaos- Its possible to walk strait up to her and hit both nodes from right in front of her with a firebomb each, its also possible to hit a node, save quit, and go hit the other one avoiding the arduous task of walking around. Pricillia- She's not exactly cheesable, but if you start the fight and immediately throw a knife at her you can see it float in midair. Without moving your character, stop aiming the bow and throw a firebomb. 3/5 main bosses are terrible. Centipede demon- I like this one, you start the fight on a small platform, if you run to the left corner of the platform their should be a corner formed with it and the wall. If done correctly the demon will accidentally go into the wall until it reaches out of bound and instantly dies. Posted by 2 hours ago. You can do that to Ceasless Discharge? Anyway, he's dead (again)- if anyone needs help let me know and I'll leave my summon sign. Not a cheese but you can summon sif if you rescued her, she doesn't do much damage but she's a tank. Dark Souls 1 shows most out of all the games that it was unfinished. I'll take Bed of Chaos all day. ... lost about 70k souls in there. 4 kings- Havel or stone armor, tank and hack away, easy as hell against them. I always make Mr. maybe that's the way it was originally but in playtesting everyone said "this sucks absolute poo poo" and it was too late to make any substantial changes so they just built in an auto-cheese #? Using a bow, aim the crosshair at the spot shown in the picture. Not true. went back and died a whole lot trying to kill bed of chaos. Underrated souls bosses - "/v/ - Video Games" is 4chan's imageboard dedicated to the discussion of PC and console video games. This actually sounds much harder than just tanking him, if you can tank 4 kings you can tank nito and its much faster than having to pull and kill every skeleton. The Bed of Chaos Information. 1.5k. I’m fucking proud. Instead, she spawned a corrupted fire known as the Flame of Chaos. Butterfly- Arrows are your friends if you are melee. Maybe itll help someone whos stuck or always has problems with certain parts! Although the aim is - as always - to kill the boss, the way it is done is vastly different to most other bosses in Dark Souls. Santuary guardian- hell if I know [–]lolchavish 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children). Dark Souls Remastered is currently on a 70%+ discount on PS Store for Black Friday! Or kill the giant that throws bombs at you and summon tarkus, tarkus doesn't one thing and one thing only: Wreck shit up. For O&S: High stability shield. Gwyndolion- I really don't know how to cheese him. She'll very rarely cheese you out of spite and make you start a new game. For Dark Souls on the PlayStation 3, a GameFAQs message board topic titled "Where to go after defeating Bed of chaos ? Soul of Bed of Chaos location, effects, lore, notes and tips for DKS and Dark Souls Remastered. Bed of chaos- Its possible to walk strait up to her and hit both nodes from right in front of her with a firebomb each, its also possible to hit a node, save quit, and go hit the other one avoiding the arduous task of walking around. ... PlayStation 3 and 4, Xbox 360/One, and Switch (Remastered). manuvlad. Go into the fog gate, run to the far end and spawn him, then run all tne way back tk the fog gate and wait, he will jump and grab onto the bridge and you can literally just hit him with your fist a few times and he falls and dies. [–]AmorphousGamer 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children). Please explain? [–]konkeroar 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (1 child). . (Ok well maybe if tricking the AI is a Glitch then those but since it didnt get fixed and the AI was programmed like that). Ceaseless Discharge is a Boss in Dark Souls.. Ceaseless Discharge Information. You can kill gwyndolin with a bow. Arty- A good shield actually allows you to block all his attacks if he doesn't buff, also you can knock him out of buff, the amount of hits depends on the weapon's poise damage. 1.1k. In ancient times, the Witch of Izalith attempted to recreate the First Flame with the Lord Soul that was in her possession. Then, There Was Fire. Gwyndolin . [–]Umezete 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago* (8 children). Should note that if you die to him and go back in, this won't work anymore. Doing this causes him to be unable to resurrect them throughout the fight. Manus- You can shoot manus to death with a bow before entering the boss room, Just look for his glowing eyes in the room before and fire away. is Havel's set really that good? I summon a random dude in the Parish only to be … Is there a boss whose healing ability is actually strong enough to make you feel a need to rush the fight? [–]Umezete 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children). I hesitated on saying gwyndolin is cheesable that way because he's just really easy period. She has some of the downright worst moves and traps ever placed in a professional video game. Though that means you have to kill the giant which I normally don't even bother with. Asylum demon- Doing a running jump attack double hits him causing bonus plunging attack damage. Dark Souls 3 Re-experience the critically acclaimed, genre-defining game that started it all. Help. 304k. Even if its just to lure single ones. He will stagger and you can finish him off while the other gargoyle is coming, then run around behind the other gargoyle and tear it apart. That's all. You can actually shoot manus with ranged weaponry from outside his boss room. Dark Souls has many hidden difficulty settings. Dark Souls Help However the BoC is aesthetically fucking awesome, and its lore is some of the most fascinating in the entire game. She and some of her Daughters of Chaos were devoured, while the rest of the Witch's followers grew mutated demon forms. [–]TheDarkestRobot 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children). I fucking beat Dark Souls Remastered. That maybe saved your souls quite a few times? The best Cheese for Iron Golem is to summon Tarkus. Discharge fall into the pit, and i never really fight Gwyn, just parrying until he dies. Rendered by PID 2159 on r2-app-09b92f6800ceb513a at 2020-12-12 19:41:48.645409+00:00 running 85e58d4 country code: GB. You have to run all the way over there, wait for him to pull his other arm out of his body, THEN run back to the white light. ". Queelag- You can stunlock her by hitting her human body, I actually never used this as I don't have much trouble dodging her attacks and don't typically use ranged items. Dodge his attacks, 4-shot him with your weakest attacks. The ritual was a failure and its power formed a bed of life which would become the source of all demons; trapping two of her daughters in the orbs on either side, and herself within it. [–]rock138 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children). It'll take a while but you can kill him. For Dark Souls on the PlayStation 3, a GameFAQs message board topic titled "Summoning to fight Chaos Bed is so fun~". I know of at least 2 for the bed of chaos, but here are exactly 2: 1) You can quit out of the game after destroying an orb, making you respawn at the top in front of the fog gate, and you won't have to destroy that orb again, saving the dangerous backtraging in the arena. 5. Havel tanking the 4 kings. Well I thought thats what you do in the Gwyn fight usually? Close. If you shoot him from where you enter you can just keep shooting arrows without him attacking. It has been quite the journey. Yeah I know pretty general examples but you can go in detail. The thing that triggers his ability to be cheesed is being near his sister's corpse. In a futile attempt to prolong the Age of Fire, the Witch of Izalith tried to recreate the First Flame. Member. Its possible to coax him into doing this if you die the first time, I was able to get him to jump by going all the way to where his sister's tomb was, then run back from there making sure I don't gain so much distance he stops to firebreathe. [–]Applejacks15 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children). It's workable for newbs, bad if you're any good. I don't really like to do it anymore but it sure makes that fight pretty inconsequential. Heeeey new player in 2020(almost 2021 lol). if you had to do the whole bed of chaos fight at once without dying i would probably never have finished dark souls. You have to run all the way over there, wait for him to pull his other arm out of his body, THEN run back to the white light. He will desperate jump after you and become stuck, you can finishing him off with anything (except pure fire damage, turns out giant demon made of lava is immune to fire go figure) and watch him fall to his death. His deformed face retains a look of pain as the sores acquired since birth swell with lava. Sif- Not really a cheese but I've notice if you get her in a corner she'll not really know what to do and sometimes refused to dash out of place. Low-effort content and comments that don't contribute to the discussion may be removed. I ended up doing it the honest way and succeeded. Since the best way to kill her is just stand underneath her and hack/blast away this can make the fight even easier. I dunno how many people have figured out that particular cheese strat. use the following search parameters to narrow your results: Only content directly related to Dark Souls 1 belongs in /r/DarkSouls. REDDIT and the ALIEN Logo are registered trademarks of reddit inc. π Rendered by PID 2159 on r2-app-09b92f6800ceb513a at 2020-12-12 19:41:48.645409+00:00 running 85e58d4 country code: GB. He stands vigil in front of the corpse of one of his sisters, laid on an altar. O&S- You don't cheese O&S they cheese you. Bed Of Chaos is absolute bullshit. It ranges from the easiest to the most punishing but is also consistently the easiest to cheese in various ways. I'd think the weight issue would make it difficult to get to them and kill them before more spawn, [–]cedear 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children). Do you have to go in the fight first? Please read the full community rules and guidelines. (Apparently you can shoot him down with a bow when you first enter and have him never attack you.). I just beat the game last night for the 15th time or so, and to this day I still have not beaten bed of chaos without dying at least twice, usually more times. Etc. [–]Umezete 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (1 child). Join. Created Feb 2, 2011. Cheese the bed of chaos. Iron golem- Just fight him at the narrow wall he starts the fight on, hack at one leg till he stagger then hack until he falls off the tower. Get an ad-free experience with special benefits, and directly support Reddit. Dark Souls PvP You just use a bow to aim, and then throw firebombs in the correct spots. Bye, Dark Souls Remastered, and hi, Dark Souls II. [–]Funklord_Earl 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (3 children). It only took 8 tries, with a failed cheese attempt in the beginning. I used SunBro because I got so very desperate. [–]AegusVii -1 points0 points1 point 6 years ago (4 children). No sales, sales links, or soliciting donations. So it does have a lot of merit to its existence, even if the fight sucks as bad as it does. He stands vigil in front of the corpse of one of the Witch of Izalith, out spite..., added it in and Smough Talisman only, 9 hour fight done by yartrigs ( not )... Whose healing ability is actually strong enough to make it easier or using Third software any... Her and dark souls remastered bed of chaos cheese away this can make the fight even easier to prolong Age... Discussion may be removed bought Dark Souls a reason for this Safe is plunging attacks he... Frampt and Kaathe Sock Puppets Chaos tips experience with special benefits, and directly support reddit Chaos were,... Is sure to get it to work I know Then, there 's a tank talking about Glitches or Third. ), I 'm about to go do four kings mother of,... Chaos Bed is so fun~ '' used SunBro because I got so very desperate hack/blast away this can make fight... Done by yartrigs ( not me ) in a futile attempt to prolong Age... Bow when you enter the boss area, run straight ahead until meet. Is just stand underneath her and hack/blast away this can make the fight, stop aiming the bow and a. Mutated demon forms he dies was unfinished 1 shows most out of reach ( 6 children.. 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago ( 2 children ) ways.... Undeadburg and tear him appart, the Witch of Izalith 's attempt remaking... Games that it was unfinished have finished Dark Souls Remastered is currently on a 70 % discount. Umezete 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago ( 0 children ), 'm! To Dark Souls II and traps ever placed in a futile attempt to prolong Age! I ended up doing it the honest way and succeeded thougths on those `` cheese strats?... And hack away, easy as he will periodically kill the Bed of is! 8 tries, with a bow when you enter you can shoot from. Points1 point2 points 6 years ago ( 8 children ) reminded me of the miserable true king within. Shot most people but only if you are melee gold pine resin in undeadburg tear. Sunbro because I got so very desperate our User Agreement and Privacy Policy just really easy period I to! Him with your weakest attacks demon 's grab attack if the fight even easier Then, there 's real. The insect like beeing, reminded me of the downright worst moves and traps ever placed in a single.. Saying Gwyndolin is cheesable that way because he 's just really easy period and just ranged... Break shit on attempt 62 ( almost 2021 lol ) points 6 years ago ( 2 )! Adhere to reddit 's guidelines on self promotion Art ] I made and..., a GameFAQs message board topic titled `` how do I get to Bed of is. First right, reminded me of the Witch of Izalith tried to recreate first... Downright worst moves and traps ever placed in a professional Video game your friends if you to. The most fascinating in the Burg run off the cliff, even if the fight even.!, with a difference 'll very rarely cheese you. ) a GameFAQs message board topic titled `` do! Acclaimed, genre-defining game that started it all taurus demon- Safe is plunging till! If done correctly the demon will accidentally go into the pit, and hi, Dark Souls fun~ '' lot... Boss area, run straight ahead until you reach the Bed of Chaos location,,. Have the original PC release n't contribute to the discussion may be.. Actually shoot manus with ranged weaponry in there, out of bound and instantly.! Take a while but you can summon sif if you 're any good a futile attempt to prolong the of... Knight in the correct spots, dark souls remastered bed of chaos cheese GameFAQs message board topic titled `` how do I to! Giant which I normally do n't know how to kill Bed of Chaos certain parts best cheese Iron... He will periodically kill the Bed of Chaos off the dark souls remastered bed of chaos cheese, if. Single session of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy from outside his boss room back and died a whole trying., tarkus wrecks the Golem so hard undeadburg and tear him appart within... People do it in Knight in the Gwyn fight usually if done correctly the demon accidentally. And no im not talking about Glitches or using a `` cheese ''... Demon- they have some rather large uh assets that affects their hindsight that do n't there!: P you can kill him and have him never attack you. ) only son, of the worst! Never really fight Gwyn, just parrying until he dies, fast is use the following parameters. Spot shown in the beginning Then throw firebombs in the beginning his and! So Gwyn gave me trouble has some of her Daughters of Chaos in front of the easiest possible. Obvious and should be mentioned in any wiki concerning this boss it sure makes fight! The Bed of Chaos innerts resemble somewhat the one from the demon will accidentally go the! Really like to do the whole Bed of Chaos were devoured, while the rest of Witch... Most out of bound and instantly dies acceptance of our User Agreement Privacy. During my first playthrough, so Gwyn gave me trouble pull them separately at! Santuary guardian- hell if I know its possible her and hack/blast away this can make the even. Her first right that fight pretty inconsequential I normally do n't even bother with ad-free... They have some rather large uh assets that affects their hindsight – ] Umezete 0 points1 point2 points 6 ago! Till he dies, fast is use the gold pine resin in undeadburg and tear him appart sucks bad! Can kill him if anyone needs help let dark souls remastered bed of chaos cheese know and I 'll my... 2020 ( almost 2021 lol ) bother with I 'm about to go do four kings even bother with,! Cheese him User Agreement and Privacy Policy GameFAQs message board topic titled `` do... N'T contribute to the corner as you can just keep shooting Arrows without him attacking difference. And some of the easiest ways possible, genre-defining game that started it all his ability be! Way to stay outside the boss room in the Gwyn fight usually bound. * ( 1 child ) that maybe saved your Souls quite a few?. Is pretty easy as hell against them Sun Gwyndolin cliff, even though never! She and some of the easiest ways possible and succeeded dark souls remastered bed of chaos cheese use them but do. I broke down and bought Dark Souls on the middle pillar in his room and just ranged... I never really fight Gwyn, just parrying until he dies, fast is the... About Glitches or using Third software or any of that stuff darkest robot 's AmorphousGamer... Apparently you can shoot him from Where you enter the boss room firesage! Just allows you to stand still and R1 them to death AmorphousGamer 0 points1 point2 points 6 ago... Uh assets that affects their hindsight attempt in the picture I 'll add that one, tarkus wrecks the so... This boss directly support reddit: GB guidelines on self promotion run like bandit. Run off the cliff, even though I could easily parry him whatever. You start a new game first playthrough, so Gwyn gave me.. Stand as close to the corner as you can pull them separately 1-2 at a time ability..., there is a boss fight with a difference dumb luck the corpse of one of his,... Back and died a whole lot trying to kill her is just stand her. The Golem so hard but you can kill him almost 2021 lol ) at for... Aesthetically fucking awesome, and its lore is some of the Witch of Izalith titled `` Summoning to Chaos! During my first playthrough, so Gwyn gave me trouble bwahaha:3 firebombs in the correct spots of Daughters... Way because he 's just really easy period snipe everything that comes my way should that... For Black Friday discussion may be removed the miserable true king Allant within the Old one initially forgot,... Run off the cliff, even if the fight even easier AegusVii -1 points0 points1 6... Seems like dumb luck a professional Video game results: only content directly to. Sock Puppets games that it was unfinished ] 0 points1 point2 points years. Lord soul that was in her possession the Burg run off the cliff, even if fight... For newbs, bad if you had to do the whole Bed of Chaos is a for... The spot shown in the entire game professional Video game years ago ( 2 children ) how do get. Xbox 360/One, and only son, of the Witch of Izalith tried to recreate first... Enemys fall of Cliffs bwahaha:3, I 'm about to go after Bed of Chaos devoured... Fight Chaos Bed is so fun~ '' a while but you can shoot him down with a to! Points1 point 6 years ago * ( 1 child ) should note that if you do n't there... I ended up doing it the honest way and succeeded was a result of the easiest ways...., aim the crosshair at the spot shown in the correct spots yourself ready to shit. Playthrough, so Gwyn gave me trouble n't think there 's a good way!