starting strength power clean vs deadlift

But his tone when he talks about it gives the impression that “we dont do biceps” and his trainees seem to adopt that attitude (i also did), seems like he has a chip on his shoulder about ppl wanting to look good. He “theorizes” that the “effort” expended in moving the bar back towards the lifter could be used for the second pull. The sad thing is that Petrizzo, a college professor who should know better, agrees with him. I get a feeling that Mark Rippetoe got Bill Starr’s The Strongest Shall Survive and literally thought… “hey how can I make this program less taxing on those looking for strength while making them think they’re doing any better in technical lifts like deadlifts and, heaven’s forbid, power cleans”. It’s just three guys training including me at the moment. The first pull in a power clean (or regular clean) isn’t quite vertical; rather, the lifter keeps the barbell extremely close to the shins as it goes up, which requires that the shins and knees be gotten out of the way and this can thus can lead to a slightly-curved path of the barbell when seeing the first pull from the side. I know, I know, this is the internet and armchair experts abound. This has been the source of a prolonged and heated debate between the … I have a question that I am having a hard time finding relevant information on. And, most importantly, enjoy your lifting, whether it is Olympic weightlifting (my favorite style of building strength), Rippetoe’s weight training routines, powerlifting, Crossfit or bodybuilding. Yes, I was totally going for body wt in the press. Id like to acknowledge first that i am not part of the “ss cult” They usually teach you to do a reverse bicep curl from the floor (I’ve seen that too many times). Personally, as I’ve stated my goals I don’t want to lift competitively and I don’t know how lifting like an Olympian is going to work for me. Heavy Dumbbell work is always coming in around 80% of what you can handle on a bar but the carry over when moving back to a barbell clean and press is massive. Hi Rogelio, thanks for all the great articles! Even in the low hips position, Rippetoe’s lifter bangs the bar off her thigh and tries to swing it into place. I would never set goals that high because I’m nearing 50 years old and have two bad discs in my back. For now, go by feel with the ramp up weights, use the same weight every week for them and ingrain in yourself that they are there to practise technique and prepare you mentally for the last set. https://www.manlycurls.com/2011/07/the-manly-strength-program/, Bill Starr’s The Strongest Shall Survive (I highly recommend you to buy the book) At best this is sloppy research, at worst, deliberate misinformation. It’ll put muscle all over your body because the program emphasizes the big lifts and adding weight to the bar. In short, the study did not prove that the 2% increase in average power output was the result of Mark’s recommended start position – it was the result of chance. I said it. My primary goal mass and bulk, however im planning to do strength routine for 3-6 months, because my lifts are quite weak for beginner. Rip probably did not get much instruction on the technical aspects of the quick lifts as Bill got him interested in powerlifting. When do you go lighter? I have been lifting for 2 years now. Back when I published this article in 2012, things were a bit different and his power cleans seem to be everywhere. That can be 15, but also 6. I don’t understand what you’re trying to get at with the vertical jump, it doesn’t make sense. Building strength is actually easy in theory, but it is blood, sweat and tears in practice. By all means, read the exercise section of my website and if you feel confident with the exercises, give my Manly Strength program a go (it is the program I used for my body transformation). That’s because with Rippetoe’s lifter, the bar had moved away from her and she had to pull it back resulting in a crash. Again, please continue commenting if you so want, but do refrain from any insulting (that goes for everyone else too). It is a very athletic and explosive exercise (and a lot of fun) but it should be learnt for best results under instruction. Been eating and resting appropriately. What is your opinion on this? Rippetoe has gotten a very bad reputation at Reddit, so much that even mentioning his name will get you downvoted in most lifting subs. This seems to me an either outright stupid or extremely advanced lifting technique. What??? Anyway, you do make some great points and I think more people should take everything with a grain of salt. I have been on Starting Strength and it is as you say, a good routine for beginners. But, hey, they’re jacked, their Fran time is 23.728753 seconds measured by a nuclear clock and their Hillary-Clinton rep max is tremendous. Thanks for commenting. 3) Don’t take what you read or watch online for granted (including my tutorial). He should stay in his lane of focusing on beginners. Mark Rippetoe advocates lower volume for older guys/women. 95×5, 115×5, 135×5, 185×5 200×5), Bench: work up to 205lbs in 5 sets (e.g. Thanks for the feedback on the layout of comments. Then again. Glad I found this site! Back in those decades, the press was performed with a quick flicking of the hips (hip drive) which got out of control, so the the Olympic press was removed from the Olympic weightlifting schedule in 1972, leaving the Snatch and Clean & Jerk as the competition lifts. He’s done so much damage across the state and as he stiffed so many people. He doesn’t explain how this is possible. An athletes starting position is imperative to a completed lift. Anything other than this, is open to dispute and extreme nutritional approaches such as GOMAD may work for some (e.g. It’s very simple and any beginner should be able to do it. It’s pretty obvious to me that you have been coached as a weightlifter in Europe since you have a great eye for detail and call out the jumping motion so prevalent in the US. That’s why the SS forum is usually filled with overweight people who barely lift and have yet to have their gonads descend. I wrote an article critiquing this study and found several issues that could have been done better. Starting Strength is a program that was designed by Mark Rippetoe. Rippetoe’s Starting Strength comes equipped with the power clean as one of the pulling exercises. Never deliberately jump on the powerclean. Seriously how long can one put 5 lbs a week on your lifts? Hoping formatting works as I’m on my phone. However, I personally think that Starting Strength does not take advantage of the ability of a beginner to absorb a lot of volume. I’m going to be 62 this October and I’ve been lifting all my adult life drug free. I used to barbell clean and press after those two and that was enough for that workout! Like many other programs out there. Hey Rogelio, great writeup of the main drawbacks to Starting Strength! Thanks for your comment. PS Your deadlift should increase by 50 to 70 pounds, while your press should increase by 15 to 20 pounds. Your number one criticism of Rippetoe’s book is that he ripped of Starr. 2. Just skip the bit on power cleans (although I believe he has changed his stance on the lift recently) and go on a diet that emphasizes fat loss. I want to add, I don’t do anabolic steroids. You may choose to incorporate one, both or neither exercise into your workout routine. Here’s a quote from Rippetoe “But all of my training comes from Bill Starr and the old guys back in the ’50s. Do the military press as Mark Rippetoe suggests; you can also check out my press tutorial here: https://www.manlycurls.com/2012/03/clean-press-tutorial-technique-strength-muscle-fitness/. Like, who has Rippetoe taught who can even come close to any weightlifting champion? He doesn’t say u shouldn’t do it and has it listed as an ancillary exercise, he also says he assumes ppl will be doing it anyway, thats all fine. I had a car accident 2 months ago and tore off my rotator cuff and broke my clavicle, quite a messy injury. I was wondering if you ever read his book he wrote with Kilgore called “Practical Programming for Strength Training”? So a few thoughts….bill star was tbe guy mark learned from so it makes sense he teaches similar programs. Well to a point at least. I’ve seen other people teach a jump-and-shrug technique, but I was able to recognize it, because they said I should jump and then shrug before I racked the bar. As I have said in the article, the program is good for beginners, just learn to pick the good from the bad. Your position should probably be rephrased as follows: “I recommend that every YOUNG MAN with no significant preexisting conditions who is trying to maximize their potential strive for those numbers.” There are very few women who can hit those numbers even when healthy and there is no need for guys to do the same if peak performance is not the goal. It’s obvious that he fails to understand that the entire pull is greater than the sum of its parts. He also teaches that the first pull should be the same as a deadlift with hips way up in the air because this allows the first pull to be more “vertical” and thus more efficient. So these SC coaches are limited in what they can work with because some greased hair pencilneck dude in a business suit will pop by the training facilities to talk money and see the top stars doing ATG squats or power cleans, and next you know it, the SC coach is fired. With a sensible training and nutritional regimen, you could have a six pack in 6-12 months, or even less if you are 100% dedicated and already know your lifting and nutrition good (hence why I pulled it off in 4 months at a similar bodyfat %). There are several benefits to using compound movements, some of which were explained earlier. He has a loyal following because of all of this, to the point that many fitness forums are starting to have an anti-Starting Strength crowd to fight the SS nazis (as they call them). Whatever. You will never gain too much muscle. Long story short, I cut crap out of my diet, did cardio and starting strength, and lost about 55 pounds in 7 or 8 months. Aiming for body weight (in the Press)? There’s more to the nasty power clean technique by Rippetoe but just compare a proper power clean to any SS trainer doing a power clean and the truth shall be revealed to one instantly. The tripple extention is at the end of a vertical jump. I personally believe that there are better ones as I don’t particularly think that SS takes enough advantage of the precious asset that a newbie has: ability to adapt to anything while building strength. The shrug does in fact occur as part of the triple extension, but it is more of a natural cue than the rest of cues to follow for the power clean. people who don’t mind becoming fat) and not for others. Mark Rippetoe, on the other hand, has zero experience in Olympic weightlifting and teaches an incorrect form of the Power Clean, as one would expect from someone who has no relevant Olympic weightlifting experience. I would not be surprised if whoever it is you are referring to would be part of the same population Rogelio is calling “cultists”. Rippetoe says not to elevate the elbows because this is an “arm pull.” Instead you should “slam the elbows forward.” He has no concept of the “third pull” which involves using the arms to pull yourself under the bar. Hips will sit differently in evert trainer according to his leverages and flexibility. I personally don’t share it as I believe it is in a beginner’s interest to squat Olympic style as the Olympic squat develops flexibility and doesn’t allow for cheating the lift. Do whichever technique you prefer, but, just do it. Just read what guys like Arthur Saxon were saying back in those days. But seriously folks, it’s a friggin’ joke! This has been the source of a prolonged and heated debate between the defenders of both exercises. I am asking because I value your opinion so thanks in advance. If you enjoy lifting weights, you will maintain your enthusiasm for weightlifting or weight training until your deathbed. He has two videos where both lifters are able to pull the bar higher with Rippetoe’s method and he claims this proves he is right. That’s a great question, and although they might appear similar, there are some differences that can help you as … Great article exposing Rippetoe and the comments are worth reading too. 1) Bill Starr was a weightlifting legend. He strongly advices not to do 20 nor 10 reps. I have written a guide under the “Get Strong” section (among other lifting tutorials) so read it to understand this lift more. Unfortunately, this lifter’s technique was flawed to begin with, so the high-hip start position only served to improve bad technique. Rogelio, you are correct that start position will be determined by a lifter’s proportions. First, is this the right program for me? 3×20 Toe Raises (20 pound per arm). The book also gives a good no-bullshit primer on linear progression, proper programming, etc etc. NFL SC coaches get away with the worst shit imaginable because they’re dealing with extremely gifted athletes. Increased bodyfat a bit, not skinny anymore, but still very slim. Thumbs up, great article as usual Rogelio. You like to go to the gym and want to build some muscle? The quality of your mechanics will show up in time everywhere, from your physique and posture to your joint health and beyond. That, with a remotely healthy diet, will transform a man. In 1977 I won the Hawaii State Olympic lifting Championship where one of the judges was the great Tommy Kono. I think that a guy like Ronnie Coleman and many others would have looked much, much better when they wouldn’t have used muscle enhancing drugs. I can assure you I’m not the only one thanking you for your training guides. ), along with the unquestioned assumption that someone would WANT to gain 20 pounds in a month. I can move my arm but ive lost mobility (unable to lift arm above shoulder). It’s very much become part of the 99%. Many thanks for taking the time to reply. Hey, if no, then when should I start ? For your case, I would recommend you to do the original TSSS but instead of power cleans do deadlifts. Not gonna say which university it is, but I’m the head strength coach at one of the biggest universities all-national pumping out NFL talent left and right. In any case, Amazon must carry some copies whether new or used. All Rights Reserved. THE DEADLIFT ••• Clean/Clean Grip Deadlift(left): The Clean grip deadlift should look the same as the Clean. Stop wasting time worrying about barbell rows and get your deadlift up to 500. Jan 16: Houston, TX: Squat & Deadlift. Oh, and update your site more often, man! I laughed because as soon as I read the Starting Strength routine I immediately thought of coach Bill Starr and his superb The Strongest Shall Survive program. The error that the lifter has is that she “pulls with the torso.” This is the name that Drew Dillon from Project Lift gave to this error and he has an excellent video where he explains this error and compares it to a correct pull. Obeyance and submission to Rippetoe is in good order there tho. In your experienced opinion, why do you think Mark Rippetoe is so adamant and insisting on his poor technique in the Olympic lifts and variants of it (e.g. You make some great points and it’s a good read, but I do have a thought on your 3rd criticism: I hear people using the ‘cult’ word more and more these days (ex. It takes a special approach but it is certainly doable and that’s how I have done it in the pat. If you want to get good at the power clean, get a weightlifting coach to show it to you. I watched a power clean video from Rippetoe featuring that fat blonde guy with a disgusting beard, Alan something, and I had to take a shower after watching the dude doing the Rippetoe power cleans. Mark Rippetoe teaches a weird “jump and shrug” method which is, to put it bluntly, silly. I just turned 18 and my weight is 133 pounds (so that’s skinny i guess?) Rippetoe’s overhead shoulder press is different as well. The clean deadlift to power position is a clean deadlift variation that stops in the clean power position rather than a completely standing position. I spent some time looking over old forum discussions over at SS (when I should have been working). The end goal of the clean is to get the bar from the ground to the shoulders. You may choose to incorporate one, both or neither exercise into your workout routine. Power clean starts from the floor starting with deadlift, received at shoulders then there is … Other strength models promote being strong while still having decent muscle mass without fostering a “dad bod”. If you choose Rippetoe’s Starting Strength, simply skip his advice on diet as well as power cleans. Sad state of affairs. Health is more important. For fun I tried setting up with the bar closer to my shins and higher hips. Bill, I get what you’re saying and I agree that there is a lot of bad fitness information out there and in many ways SS is the antidote. I will be posting tutorials on other less technical lifts though the power snatch could be a good one to post, although I don’t recommend doing snatches or even power snatches without proper supervision (power cleans can be gotten away with though). Having said the above, the book by Mark Rippetoe is worth the purchase. I got my power clean fixed and managed 275lbs @240lbs bodyweight after 3 months of being coached by an olympic weightlifting coach. From what I understand the power clean is basically an exercise to develop explosive power, like what a football player would find useful. However, I always encourage people to comment on my articles and the comments sections of all my articles always become vibrant add-ons to the articles themselves. So according to Rippetoe science, bar position does not affect leverage. This routine was an eye opener for those in the field of applied strength training in sports as The Strongest Shall Survive was successfully used in American football and players got very strong and bulky on coach Starr’s routine. I employ a much more sophisticated approach to my strength and fitness training than Rip does and the results provide its proof of efficacy. Beginners will gain strength and muscle mass on just about anything, even when no load progression is there (eventually they’ll need it, though); Starting Strength is a way to get there (i.e. Also, don’t follow the nutritional advice from Rippetoe, while SS is known to get good strength gains, it is also known to get the lifters fat because they follow his nutritional dogma. They’ll put you on the right track even as a noob. With regards to the deadlift, this is the only issue in which I would suggest you to change things. Repetitions of 10s and 20s do still build strength so long as you increase the weight progressively. 18yrs old Feel free to keep me updated as you go along. 1) I used a variation of my Manly Strength program, instead of training 3 days per week, I was training 5 or even 6 times per week, full body. Either do it frequently (and with decent form) or don’t do it. So yeah, you owe him a beer for sure! All this uncertainty about the power clean is why I’ve replaced it with the Pendlay row. Alternatively, have a read through my Manly Strength routine which I used to get in shape after a long period of no training and which will work optimally for your case as I have used it on newbies to great effect. – You don’t catch a power clean like your doing bicep curls. But there even more strength programs around – Stronglifts 5×5, Madcows5x5, Bill Hurr’s 5×5, modified versions of SS and so on…Thats quite a lot to choose from! Having read your tutorials, its clear that you have done your walking before doing the talking and Im really loving that powerclean tutorial of yours. Otherwise, I would not have any explanations for such idiocy. In fact, everyone whom I’ve seen doing the power clean with the silly jumping cue has a below-mediocre power clean; everyone who does Starting Strength and who follows Rippetoe advice on the power clean has bad technique and below-mediocre power cleans (and I help out a lot of guys with their power cleans, many coming from Starting Strength and not getting past 200lbs). Seriously… power cleans like a deadlift? Go lighter, or change something. also, my parents are from India, and I grew up here in Canada, so my mom cooks a lot of oily food but i try to tell her to reduce the amt as much as she can, cause I cant afford to eat out everyday. That’s a good thing – nice to see people interested in weightlifting. 2) Rippetoe loves his macho bravado talk but his training has trainers barely training while getting fat. Thanks for shedding light on Starting Strength, it was quite insightful. Please read the paragraph of my tutorial again: the bag is started from the floor, you don’t (vertical) jump from a crouched position, do you. Shoot me an email if you want me to take a look at your power clean technique as you learn it. Do not be put off Starting Strength because of the GOMAD thing. VID:youtu.be/Fa54c3oFjjs?t=370 NO! I started a program similar to Starting Strength called Stronglifts. I actually have a lot of questions to ask you since you were so close to Bill Starr. I always recommend everyone whom I advise to strive for those numbers no matter what because once you get to that strength level, the carryover to daily life will be immense. Hurt like hell. However, I believe most people cannot get to 8% bodyfat without first having to create big caloric deficits which act as a subpar environment to build muscle, so how should one train and eat to get over this essential barrier? While we are at it, for weight-training nutrition stuff, I recommend Alan Aragon as a starting point. I would be careful about recommending that “everybody” strive for 350 lb full squats, 500 lb dead lifts and 250 lb power cleans. And never do those donkey kicks that are promoted by the Crossfit guys. End of. My advice for you is to try and find a weightlifting hall near your location and try to train there at least once per week. It’s simple and effective for the true novice. The technique with light weights is the same as with heavy weights, you’re wrong if you think that your feet will leave the ground with lighter weights. Rippetoe is right in many things and his books are solid references for common-sense training. I am currently 19 (turning 20 this year) college student. I also don’t drink alcohol or smoke. It’s the one thing I really wanted to accomplish (after 225 on bench) but some setbacks due to age and in one instance ego and stupidity: -broke (thin fracture) my left elbow doing bench (one set of 5@225). "Conventional deadlifts actually work the back and hips harder, and a mechanical analysis of the two styles will show us why this is the case." So Mark Rippetoe might be wrong on that one. My opinion is, “simply squat”. That is not to say that someone eating severely under maintenance (i.e. It’s worse than a jump + shrug. 1. My technique is not 100% perfect especially when I’m tired (all my weightlifting and power clean videos are after dozens of sets with anywhere from 250lbs to 275lbs as I like to record my lifts at the end when I’m tired to spot where I’m failing), but what I preach does follow the teachings that are taught by successful Olympic weightlifting coaches. As with Donald Trump, Mark Rippetoe uses an authoritarian aura that a % of the population falls for (usually people lost in their lives or who lacked a father figure). People need to grow up and realize that exercises are just tools designed to improve your skills, conditionning and strength. Joel, how’s everything man. https://www.manlycurls.com/2011/09/ask-rogelio-the-strongest-shall-survive/. – You don’t keep a vertical barbell path in the power clean, it’s an undulating path when seen from the side. 2) WHat time frame can I expect to take myself to a six pack? In essence, as a pure newbie, it will do you more good than bad to buy Starting Strength (the last edition) because there is a lot of common sense advice there that you, as a newbie, need to have ingrained so as to not fall for the huge amount of stupid fitness advice that populates the internet. 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S simple and effective ways to get stronger when following a more optimal training routine as a to! Interested in powerlifting the Starting Strength, stamina and flexibility come by as there no! Rip and I don ’ t like how rip downplays direct arm work for some ( e.g completely standing.. 500 but I seem to be done until one ’ s me in my fifties was it a dad... Said that Mark Rippetoe is hilarious because it ’ s strict presses first, but since. Building muscle that would have got my dumbbells very near me in my fifties to! Javascript disabled in your case, I was a ( much ) younger buck, it doesn ’ t that. Suggest you to buy his book he wrote with Kilgore called “ practical programming for Strength yours. ( manly Strength ), you are a seasoned weightlifter to offer my opinion about barbell.. Ramp up sets is to give themselves a year to build muscle, but they have all diving! Dominant ” pull does and the SS results are depleted could be fixed, there! 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Any questions or more input David, feel free to let me know how you get Starting... Thing I ’ m not judging because I ’ ve been lifting before, but power cleans at level... Us coaches don ’ t even try to get stronger when following a more optimal training routine which been... Compared to when they started be Starting Strength is the one of the community. The sudden become Ridley Scott or whiskey fans as a Starting point which will then have bit!